Sukhinder Singh on Building The Whisky Exchange and the Soul of Single Malts

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back everybody to another fun edition of the Rolex Whiskey Passion Project.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Today I have a gentleman on who’s quite a legend in the industry.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I’ve had so much fun with him this year after finally meeting in person and having a good time without further ado.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, Kim to sing, welcome to the show, my friend.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How are you?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I’m good, Gavin.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for the kind words.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Ugh.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Truly, a magical time hanging out with you, my friend, learning and seeing and doing stuff, and I look forward to many, many more.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Really, the way I like the first question I always like to ask on this podcast is, for you, obviously, the majority of the world knows the journey, but I’m curious, what was your first experience with really good whiskey when you were like, wow, this is good.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I started collecting, but when I was quite young in 1516, collecting miniatures, but as we had a drink shop, you know, it was easy to take them and take them home and put them on display.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and I eventually graduated and became very interested in single molds rather than collecting generic amenities.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And when I fell in a with single mold initially it was really

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[SPEAKER_01]: understanding the distilleries, you know, the variances, what makes each distillery different.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn’t really drinking much at the time, only Guinness, I wasn’t really a spirit-stringer, and then I decided I wanted to learn more, I needed to know more, and I started traveling to Scotland, and it was usually, initially, my first trip to Scotland was 1988, and

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I just wanted to learn so you know I turned up a distilleries knocked on the doors and a lot of these places would close to the public.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And but they open the doors, you know, and welcome me in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There was this like you’re interested, you’re more than welcome to come.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So after understanding, you know, that, you know, the process is the same, the environment is slightly different.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and just because of, you know, the shape of the stills of the cut points, the length of fermentation is it there is it cloudy, you get different nuances and then put them into different types of casks, you get different flavors.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I was trying the stand with staff and it intrigued me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and initially it was like, I went very slow.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I decided I wanted to only collect really old bottles and one from each distillery.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I had an end goal 120 bottles of the time, 110, 120 bottles and

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[SPEAKER_01]: That’s when I really started understanding old and rare, and just talking to friends, people I met, you know, I understood that old McCallan was great, old Springbank was great, there was very little things like Ardbeg or Glenmarin G, or you know, you were just standard, but you found variations in Springbank and McCallan.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Glenn Farkler is a couple of other brands.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, when I wanted to go down this journey of discovery, which I had heard from people that, you know,

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[SPEAKER_01]: how complex or whiskey is and when you open the bottle, it keeps evolving and changing and you get layers and layers and layers of flavor.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the first old bottle I opened, which is probably in 1990, was an old spring bang 21 year old dumpy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I opened it in my office, in my parent shop,

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[SPEAKER_01]: and it just blew me away.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I then sort of, you know, went back to it every day to have a little drama every day to see, you know, how it was.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because also, you know, you learn or you hear that whiskey changes and you’re, and who you’re with,

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[SPEAKER_01]: or your mood changes the whiskey.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you’re in a good mood, it tastes like this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We’re in a bad mood.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In the summer, it tastes like this and the winter, it tastes like this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In London, it tastes like this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In Scotland, it tastes different.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I just, I wanted to try it in my environment, but in different scenarios, different days, different people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I found that I kept picking up new flavors.

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[SPEAKER_01]: but always the whiskey was amazing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And over time also, as there was more oxygen in the bottle, they opened up and it got better, you know, it got actually better and better and better.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that was my first experience and what of course, once you’ve been through that experience once,

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[SPEAKER_01]: you want to carry on.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I just, you know, okay, what am I opening next?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What I’m opening next?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What I’m opening next?

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I also gravitated towards indie botlings because from the distillers, there was not very much available.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And my first love at the time became Caddenheads.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So Caddenheads are just open then you shop and Edinburgh.

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[SPEAKER_01]: the manager became a really good friend and you know he was quite a human risky but he only knew Kadenhead.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He didn’t know anything outside the Kadenhead’s world and I didn’t know much about indie bottleings and lost distilleries and distilleries which you couldn’t find on the main you know and the main shops.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So we actually learned a lot from each other

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[SPEAKER_01]: a lot a lot a lot about lost distilleries a lot about distilleries which you just couldn’t find, you know, Milton, Duff and Glenbergie and so on and so forth.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they’re Dallas too that I had with you in a hunt in London was insanely good, which one I don’t remember.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a Gordon

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[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was just like, it’s, it’s insane.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you’re like, bad these lost distilleries ghost distilleries.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I, I’m, I’m curious, like, you like, in the 90s.

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[SPEAKER_00]: In America, there is no business for Scotch, like it’s just not like I’m working in restaurants and nightclubs and there’s like nothing, it’s Johnny Walker and you know a Glenn, you know, one of the Glenns and over for you like you’re going through this whole journey and there are single malls and there are indie botellists because that’s like that’s kind of like what they had to do with the whiskey, the indie guys were buying it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: his nobody else was doing it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But it was very small garden, you know, they remember they they they virtually didn’t ship because in those days it was quite difficult.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There was no internet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, this was before the fax machine came.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the only way to access this stuff was actually physically going to the shop makes sense.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I, I went and actually once a year, but then because I became quite friendly with Neil, we were talking on the phone once a week or once every two weeks because he would tell me what news come in and said, and they always had a bottle of everything open.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So he would try it and he would tell me what was really good.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for me, the really cool thing about that era is that Sherry Coss was Sherry Coss.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You don’t want to hear.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is the joke in cheese today?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s it’s almost like a sadness of the industry now when they talk about Sherry.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s like, it’s bullshit.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s just not to say him and that’s okay and I think that we have this beautiful vintage whisky that still do exist and tell the true story of these distillery and like you’re saying cruising around in the late 80s, early 90s, they were no distillery tourism.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn’t a business, they were just lucky to make whisky and stay open.

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[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think independent bot was thrive because the distillers were so happy that somebody wanted to buy their whiskey, because it was all then lending.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and it was and it was affordable.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you wanted it, I mean, there’s still wasn’t a demand for it, but if you wanted it, it wasn’t going to break the bank.

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[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, it was really affordable.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and when do you, so when, so after this journey is going on there, because so now I, like, you’re saying, you know, I wanted to get one bottle of each, at what point are you like, you know, I’m just going to start buying everything that I like.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what was that, what was that switch in your brain?

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[SPEAKER_00]: We’re like, uh, it has the times here and quite early.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I started collecting bottles probably around

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[SPEAKER_01]: 89.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, 1989.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I, for the first two, three years, I maintained one bottle from each distillery.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I only bought two bottles a year, three bottles a year, because I only wanted something really old.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And where were you finding these?

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[SPEAKER_00]: This was just through relationships, cruising around.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now that you’re kind of moving around and meeting people,

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[SPEAKER_00]: uh… always like what was the format like you’re saying was there was no internet you’d have to go to a store and find something sitting on shelf

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the first whisky auction that ever happened was in Glasgow in 1988, and it was Christy’s.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that happened for a few years, yeah, once a year.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I made it a pilgrimage to go to the auction and then do spend a week in Scotland traveling around.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s where I left, because there was nowhere else to learn, because the only place I

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s where I learned for the first two, three years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s where I bought, and at the first year I bought nothing in 88.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was just there to learn in 89, I bought one bottle in 90, I bought two bottles in 91, I think I bought two bottles in 92, I bought two bottles.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then in 93,

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[SPEAKER_01]: something happened.

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[SPEAKER_01]: For me, something really made you happen in the industry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think people don’t really understand or appreciate how important this product was.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was black before more.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, nothing of that ill-cocaliber had been bottled before.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Something that was beautifully packaged,

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[SPEAKER_01]: and was a really dark, showy-cast whisky, and they were championing it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, normally people bottled, occasionally people bottled a showy-cast whisky, but it was just, it was a showy-cast and that was it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But these guys actually championed it and presented it in a way that nobody had done.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just like,

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[SPEAKER_01]: I’m in awe, I have to buy one of these, you know, I just wanted, it was like, I already had an old boom wall, but I had to have one of these because it was just so beautiful.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was so beautiful.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then the following year they did addition to the third year they did addition three, and I just had to have one of each.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And after that, but at that point,

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[SPEAKER_01]: very few companies were bottling aged premiums and gomols.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think when people saw the success a black boomer, other distillers thought we need to do something.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say then around 94, 95, 96 is when things started changing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: People started bottling.

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[SPEAKER_01]: asianly, something special.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But when I’m in occasionally, I’m talking about one century two, three years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You with me?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I would imagine these things sat on on the shelf.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.

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[SPEAKER_00]: In the in the shops.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody took them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It took time to sell through.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like before, I mean, you were black before, it didn’t just fly out, it took, I would say, close to your year for first edition to sell out, close to a year for second edition to sell out, and then third edition gone with the blink of an eye.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And what do you think, you think because by that point, one and two had been tasted and they knew people knew they wanted to something like that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was really the start, you know, there was things happening.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was just the start, as I said, more and more people had started getting into single mall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a lovely time, it was really through these very little was happening through the distillers and really for me it really started taking off in the late 1990s and early 2000s is that’s when things just went let’s let’s bottle so many distillers started bottling their own whiskeys which they never before did and

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[SPEAKER_01]: In a 99, for I’m pretty sure it was 99, was the start of Douglas Lang.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a start of Duncantila to prominent major independent botlers that bottled some of the most amazing stuff.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that’s having existed, you know?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you, but you up until that point were just buying bottles and cases, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: You weren’t buying barrels yet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, I wasn’t.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That came much later.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was purely bottle stock.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was initially it was just, you know, for myself.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I met some collectors abroad and they would say, so can they look, you’ve got a shop.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Can you get us this and can you get us that?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I just incorporated into my parents’ business.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I remember Blackbomore first edition.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I’ve got five cases, a 30-bolls.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We’ve retailed it, retailed it at, I think, of 65 or 70 pounds of ball.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Which was expensive for the time, no?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was,

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it was, but it just felt great.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was on me, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I still, I still, I’m still mesmerized, obviously living in a different kind of world now, but up until 20 years ago, Johnny Walker Blue was top shelf.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was like, and if someone had that, you like, man, they’ve really made it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that’s just only up until 2006, you know, so like you’re talking about like 1999 and 2000, like it’s about to happen where the lives about to blow.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But remember, for me, there’s a difference between blended whiskey and sing them out.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for a normal consumer, they just want enjoyment.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They don’t want to think, they don’t want something that’s too serious or cast-strand, the big flavors.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They want something a bit richer, a bit more complex, but still easy drinking.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, 43%.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that’s where, you know, blends have strived and have done well, especially in new markets where people are just understanding whisky, are getting to know whisky.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, India is a similar market like that, it’s a massive market.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the biggest whisky markets on the world, if you take Indian whisky into

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, things like Johnny Walker, they like because it’s, they drink socially.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You understand, when you’re to a single mile, it becomes a little bit more serious.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, somebody, everybody wants to discuss it, everybody wants to, you know, talk about it and discuss the flavors, etc., which is great.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of people just want whiskey for enjoyment and actually, you know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: What did you like, you know, for me growing up in South Africa, it was Johnny Walker, it was shivers, it was bells, and it was J&B.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And there was not a day that you went by where that was just not happening on the rocks, very social, so you spot on, like you just knew what you were getting.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You weren’t like, oh my god, I pick up this note in that note.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It’s just like, hey, this is what we drink and lots of it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very true, you know, I mean, I remember playing backgammon and you could polish off a bottle of J&B in two hours and not even feel it or even think about it very long the rocks, you know, and it was like, and I remember like coming in, you know, when I started learning more about the single mults and especially the Japanese whiskeys and be like, whoa, you have to take a moment with this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, true, very true.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But again, Japanese, but again, Japanese, if you think about it, the reason Japanese has been a huge success is because the whiskey is a very approachable.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they are Yamazaki, Haksu, they are so approachable, they’re so consumer friendly, they’re fruity and they’re textual, and that’s what people want.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think there are a lot of money for what they are, but you know, I can’t fault them, you know, I can’t fault them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Do I get excited?

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like I do with Scott’s single mall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I would say no.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I find Japanese whiskey You know the big brands a little too perfect if you see what I mean.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah 100% you know what I mean?

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[SPEAKER_01]: They’re just too perfect and I think that’s really good But for the for the you know Connorsers of the people who really understand whiskey you want those slightly

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[SPEAKER_00]: No, I’m 100% agree.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the first time I tried Santori, my thought in my head was whoever made this, you know, their give a F level was so high that if it didn’t, if it wasn’t perfect, their polyus poured down the drain.

19:33.344 –> 19:34.505
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, absolutely.

19:34.705 –> 19:41.191
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s not, and then like spending all this time lately with Shinji and realizing, that’s what it’s about, the perfect product.

19:41.891 –> 19:42.772
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s it.

19:42.812 –> 19:43.693
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s the strife.

19:44.694 –> 19:45.855
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s a culture, y’all man.

19:49.114 –> 19:55.860
[SPEAKER_01]: When you think about Japan, any consumer, the first thing you say when you think about Japan is quality.

19:56.140 –> 20:05.148
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, whether that is electronics, whether that’s cars, whatever it is, food, it’s just purely about quality.

20:06.775 –> 20:08.056
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I’m taking back.

20:08.076 –> 20:09.817
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, so now you do bottles.

20:09.897 –> 20:12.359
[SPEAKER_00]: When does the world of barrels happen for you?

20:12.419 –> 20:23.806
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this is always intrigued me, how much stuff and with the whiskey exchange that you’ve bottled like, now you’re like, hey, I wanna kind of, is that the next step, by the way, in the process?

20:23.846 –> 20:33.373
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause you went from minatures to 120 bottles, one of each distillery to, hey, I want black bow moors, what’s the next step in this journey?

20:35.455 –> 20:52.744
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it’s been organic, I think it’s the way I’ve been planned, it’s just been mainly part of business and partly pleasure, so my interest in managers was pleasure, I gravitated to bottles of pleasure.

20:54.048 –> 20:58.673
[SPEAKER_01]: It made it into business because my parents were in the alcohol drink business.

20:58.733 –> 21:01.195
[SPEAKER_01]: So it became part of it.

21:01.936 –> 21:06.661
[SPEAKER_01]: I then, when parents retired, I decided I wanted to do whiskey full time.

21:07.221 –> 21:07.782
[SPEAKER_01]: That was in 1999.

21:09.292 –> 21:26.782
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were the first, we were the first whiskey specialist dealing in both new staff and old and rare because I was just so passionate and interested in old and rare and I think a lot of people don’t realize I was really the first dealer in old and rare.

21:27.163 –> 21:28.483
[SPEAKER_01]: I was old and rare.

21:28.804 –> 21:34.247
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no place on the planet to buy old and rare whiskey apart from the whiskey exchange.

21:36.229 –> 21:42.754
[SPEAKER_01]: There was one auction in Scotland, but they did things now and again, and it was a bit irregular.

21:42.894 –> 21:48.759
[SPEAKER_01]: Once a year, sometimes twice a year, sometimes never, but that’s sporadic.

21:49.060 –> 21:53.523
[SPEAKER_01]: We were there permanently, and I was building stock.

21:53.924 –> 21:56.526
[SPEAKER_01]: By this time, I was traveling around Scotland.

21:57.226 –> 22:02.831
[SPEAKER_01]: I met, I made friends with every single distillery manager in Scotland.

22:03.531 –> 22:06.953
[SPEAKER_01]: and every single staff member of every distillery.

22:07.053 –> 22:10.274
[SPEAKER_01]: My name was just there in Scotland.

22:10.334 –> 22:22.979
[SPEAKER_01]: If anybody was retiring or needed money and wanted to sell their little collection or bottles which they were given, you know, the staff always were given bottle on anniversaries and special occasions.

22:23.479 –> 22:30.362
[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone had a little collection of, you know, a dozen bottles or two dozen bottles or 30 bottles, whatever.

22:31.182 –> 22:41.111
[SPEAKER_01]: And I literally ended up buying every single staff workers collection about one.

22:41.271 –> 22:51.420
[SPEAKER_01]: He would tell his friends and next time I went up I would buy a three more and they would tell their friends and next time I went up I’d buy six more collections and that was across the adjo.

22:51.460 –> 22:53.822
[SPEAKER_01]: That was across shivers, that was across

22:54.603 –> 22:57.126
[SPEAKER_01]: other companies as well, McCall and so and so forth.

22:57.546 –> 23:00.710
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was sort of, you know, organic or how everything happened.

23:01.631 –> 23:05.916
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we started the whisky exchange in 1999,

23:07.432 –> 23:14.238
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was inevitable because, you know, we were, we were the biggest seller of whiskey on the planet.

23:15.399 –> 23:19.362
[SPEAKER_01]: We were the biggest customer of Douglas Lyme and I’m going to tell us on so forth.

23:20.003 –> 23:27.970
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, in some way, you know, we bought 50% of what I bought.

23:28.450 –> 23:28.850
[UNKNOWN]: Why?

23:29.651 –> 23:39.417
[SPEAKER_01]: Seriously, they offer me the list first to say to Kim the Yutu’s first, because I was the market, there wasn’t a market.

23:39.918 –> 23:46.182
[SPEAKER_01]: You would mean, with some of these companies, I even helped them with some importers around the world.

23:47.088 –> 23:47.769
[SPEAKER_01]: which was great.

23:48.249 –> 24:02.021
[SPEAKER_01]: So because we were selling so much in the bottleings, signatory, Gordon McTrail, double slang, hunter-lang, heart-brothers, there was not much else to be fair in that era.

24:02.302 –> 24:03.202
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, trying.

24:04.143 –> 24:11.168
[SPEAKER_01]: and it was like, you know, I was approached by a broker and it was like, okay, this is interesting.

24:12.109 –> 24:22.316
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first whiskey I ever bottled was in 2000 and it was a Glen Grant 1969, 31-year-old

24:28.782 –> 24:30.723
[SPEAKER_01]: as you can, as you can, as you can.

24:30.823 –> 24:31.824
[SPEAKER_00]: And that’s what I’m like vinegar.

24:32.204 –> 24:34.425
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s literally delicious whiskey.

24:34.825 –> 24:36.166
[SPEAKER_01]: That was in 2000.

24:36.746 –> 24:46.852
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in 2002, I decided that, I’m getting offers, I, and, you know, I’ve got access to these people and these brokers.

24:47.713 –> 24:51.735
[SPEAKER_01]: And it’d be nice to do my own little rain job, single cars.

24:52.315 –> 24:54.556
[SPEAKER_01]: And I created the single multi-scotler in 2000.

24:55.997 –> 25:01.442
[SPEAKER_01]: So next year to 27 missile-bring 25 years of being in a booklet.

25:01.982 –> 25:11.850
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I look at that, I say, you know, I’m sort of the last of the big guys or the first of the new generation, if you see what I mean.

25:11.930 –> 25:13.351
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:13.792 –> 25:20.317
[SPEAKER_01]: But after we started, probably no one started probably for a good five, six years.

25:20.958 –> 25:21.818
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and probably it

25:23.980 –> 25:30.622
[SPEAKER_01]: a few other people started and then in the late 2000s, more people started, you know.

25:30.702 –> 25:32.282
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a lovely time.

25:32.322 –> 25:36.463
[SPEAKER_01]: But for me, I only, you know, initially it was, it was unusual.

25:36.523 –> 25:42.224
[SPEAKER_01]: You buy a handful of cars, you bought a handful of cars, you bought a handful of cars, you bought a handful of cars.

25:42.264 –> 25:48.686
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I had opportunities like, you know, I knew whiskeys which were great and quite difficult to

25:54.708 –> 25:57.971
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s scary and it’s amazing and it’s lovely.

25:58.031 –> 26:02.416
[SPEAKER_01]: I bought, I think close to a hundred cars, so Rosebank.

26:03.076 –> 26:05.919
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, in the early 2000s.

26:07.322 –> 26:19.155
[SPEAKER_01]: And after that virtually no cost of rose bank came to the market, the few independent bottles had a few odd cars here or there, but we probably have the largest stock rolling of rose bank.

26:19.816 –> 26:22.719
[SPEAKER_01]: And I linked it later, I think it was in 2000.

26:24.220 –> 26:32.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Again around that in 2002, 2003, I bought about 100 cars of odd bag, I bought 200 cars of laforeg.

26:33.227 –> 26:48.500
[SPEAKER_01]: I just saw the opportunity, I knew these whiskeys were lovely, but as I made money in the business, I invested it back into stock, whether that was a little bit of car stock or it was buying more old and rare, or it was buying the right independent bottleings.

26:49.080 –> 26:56.890
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, when we found really lovely independent bottling, you know, a single car, remember, a single car, a single car, a single car, and it’s gone.

26:57.411 –> 27:02.838
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you, you know, I knew who was good, who was, who the good bottle is where,

27:04.084 –> 27:10.568
[SPEAKER_01]: It had a good gauge on which distilleries, which vintages work with Vitch Whiskey.

27:11.448 –> 27:16.411
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn’t make sense because it shouldn’t happen to distilled product, but it does.

27:17.132 –> 27:22.755
[SPEAKER_01]: Certain vintages for certain whiskeys are synonymous for being absolutely amazing.

27:23.256 –> 27:26.538
[SPEAKER_01]: And it could be something happened in production that year.

27:27.438 –> 27:39.101
[SPEAKER_01]: where maybe it was slower production and fermentation was longer or, you know, they found the right cars and the quality of cars and that year were amazing.

27:39.121 –> 27:41.261
[SPEAKER_01]: So it’s a combination of everything.

27:42.041 –> 27:45.682
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, you know, you just buy and you say, okay, fine.

27:46.082 –> 27:55.505
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when we bought from some of the independent body, something and that looks really good and, you know, I would open stuff, I would

27:58.186 –> 28:07.474
[SPEAKER_01]: By the loads of amazing customers, and you know, they would email or call with their feedback to say, how amazing that whiskey was, thank you so much for recommending it.

28:08.174 –> 28:12.057
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would, you know, I would open it myself sometimes and say,

28:13.038 –> 28:16.020
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I knew it would be good, but he said that good.

28:16.481 –> 28:23.306
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it was that good, I would go back and say, do you have any more stock, and I would buy everything they had, because it was that good.

28:23.987 –> 28:28.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember you tried it at whiskey show.

28:28.991 –> 28:31.493
[SPEAKER_01]: The stand opposite to me, I think, I might have taken you go.

28:31.513 –> 28:33.114
[SPEAKER_01]: The long mourn, I can say.

28:33.895 –> 28:35.316
[SPEAKER_01]: Scott, Scott selection.

28:35.616 –> 28:44.324
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, and I discovered when it was launched and I I was always in love with Longman.

28:44.384 –> 28:48.488
[SPEAKER_01]: So Sherry cast Longman for me was like, wow, okay, let’s try this.

28:48.628 –> 28:51.130
[SPEAKER_01]: I opened it and just went crazy.

28:51.590 –> 28:55.314
[SPEAKER_01]: I went back and I bought the whole stock, which was just over a hundred cases.

28:55.974 –> 29:06.045
[SPEAKER_01]: I’d bought the whole stock and we offered it and we sold it and people were like, oh my god, this is amazing and they kept coming back You know, they bought two bottles and they got that’s amazing.

29:06.205 –> 29:07.126
[SPEAKER_01]: I won six more.

29:07.566 –> 29:10.229
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because it was just such amazing whiskey

29:11.330 –> 29:25.616
[SPEAKER_01]: But to be fair, everything bottle around that era was amazing, because you’re talking about if it was a 15-20-year-old whiskey, you’re going back to the 60s and 70s and you understand.

29:25.957 –> 29:26.157
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

29:27.017 –> 29:29.520
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, after mid-assurance, it was different.

29:29.801 –> 29:31.583
[SPEAKER_01]: The broad slices are there, anything, the people.

29:32.344 –> 29:35.848
[SPEAKER_01]: After the mid-70s, things are a hit or miss.

29:36.469 –> 29:44.438
[SPEAKER_01]: 80s is a very difficult era, but anything prior to 76, I would say you could buy a blind.

29:45.239 –> 29:47.780
[SPEAKER_01]: And you would say, that is a really amazing whiskey.

29:48.260 –> 29:50.201
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we didn’t realize it.

29:50.261 –> 29:52.902
[SPEAKER_01]: We had access to so much of it.

29:53.362 –> 29:58.984
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were buying a car or you know, bottling from these ventages, would sell it.

29:59.004 –> 30:00.485
[SPEAKER_01]: The next wood car, would sell it.

30:00.505 –> 30:01.865
[SPEAKER_01]: The next wood car we would sell it.

30:02.265 –> 30:06.967
[SPEAKER_01]: You’re talking about Boemore 66, 68, 69, Bora 70, 71, 72, I’d bake 72, 73, 74, 75.

30:13.069 –> 30:17.060
[SPEAKER_01]: and it just kept coming, it just kept coming, and it was all amazing.

30:18.484 –> 30:20.329
[SPEAKER_01]: It was such an amazing time, seriously.

30:21.558 –> 30:25.979
[SPEAKER_01]: So that’s how I graduated to cast because, you know, I kept my ears to the ground.

30:26.539 –> 30:37.961
[SPEAKER_01]: If you find, if you liked something, again, I fell in love with tiny 72, some people had bottle it, so then I went on the hunt for cast so tiny 72.

30:38.721 –> 30:44.282
[SPEAKER_01]: And over like the next year, I found a parcel of five cast and a parcel of two cast.

30:44.822 –> 30:48.903
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very different in style, but all amazing.

30:49.768 –> 30:53.449
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you try and you learn, then you start hunting.

30:53.929 –> 30:57.230
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that you were just out there all the time.

30:57.250 –> 31:02.391
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like, you know, you need air, you know, and water to survive.

31:02.451 –> 31:04.832
[SPEAKER_00]: You were literally like in deep it.

31:05.032 –> 31:06.252
[SPEAKER_00]: You knew where everything was.

31:06.272 –> 31:07.652
[SPEAKER_00]: You knew, everyone was calling you.

31:08.312 –> 31:13.994
[SPEAKER_00]: You were the, you know, like you said a few minutes ago, you were the market for a long, long time, if not forever.

31:14.714 –> 31:17.855
[SPEAKER_00]: And you were getting calls and when you wanted to go hunting,

31:19.615 –> 31:19.976
[SPEAKER_00]: together.

31:19.996 –> 31:35.275
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, given another example, even, you know, as whiskey became popular, people started opening visitor centers and then they’re doing, you know, distillery, exclusive bottling, and then what remember in 1999?

31:36.928 –> 31:52.617
[SPEAKER_01]: when Ardbegg Distillery opened, they bottled something called Managers Choice, 1976, single-cast, single-sherry-cast, Ardbegg, approximately 500 bottles, 100-pound retail bottle.

31:53.778 –> 31:59.942
[SPEAKER_01]: And I found it was Jackie Thompson, who was a visitor to manager.

32:00.502 –> 32:03.423
[SPEAKER_01]: became friends with the very early on as soon as she started.

32:03.943 –> 32:10.885
[SPEAKER_01]: And I go Jackie, I’d like to buy 120 bottles and she goes really, like I am.

32:12.145 –> 32:13.125
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, you know.

32:13.365 –> 32:15.986
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and today everything’s one per person.

32:16.026 –> 32:16.146
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

32:16.766 –> 32:19.007
[SPEAKER_01]: We’re going to say, I was the market.

32:19.027 –> 32:23.908
[SPEAKER_01]: I had so much demand and people and tractors all over the world.

32:25.468 –> 32:28.090
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was an element across, and it was great.

32:28.290 –> 32:29.110
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a great time.

32:29.791 –> 32:33.873
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, for you, just because you’ve been on the journey for such a long time.

32:34.954 –> 32:37.836
[SPEAKER_00]: Around, I don’t know, what were you saying?

32:37.976 –> 32:44.900
[SPEAKER_00]: 2015 to 2017, when pricing just exploded, were you surprised or you expected that to happen?

32:47.100 –> 32:49.382
[SPEAKER_01]: I expected prices to go up.

32:49.802 –> 32:51.744
[SPEAKER_01]: I was around 15 years ago here.

32:52.324 –> 32:53.766
[SPEAKER_01]: We needed a new warehouse.

32:53.866 –> 32:57.529
[SPEAKER_01]: We would run out of space in our previous warehouse.

32:58.109 –> 33:03.013
[SPEAKER_01]: And we found a lovely place in Park Royal where we are now.

33:03.790 –> 33:10.374
[SPEAKER_01]: but it was way too big, it was so big, but we just felt it was the right thing to do.

33:11.094 –> 33:18.919
[SPEAKER_01]: But as there was a lot of money and we needed, I decided I needed to sell some stock.

33:19.439 –> 33:25.823
[SPEAKER_01]: I was holding, you know, cases of some really lovely whiskeys, which I believed in.

33:26.483 –> 33:32.787
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to keep for the long term because I just felt there was such amazing whiskeys and these are things I wanted to drink.

33:33.467 –> 33:55.048
[SPEAKER_01]: you know in the future because I love them so much but because I needed the money I had two pallets mixed pallets with all this stuff and I sold it and I was a bit upset because prices had not really moved that much and you know I did okay but

33:56.729 –> 34:02.272
[SPEAKER_01]: a year later, six months to a year later, things started to go bull.

34:02.892 –> 34:05.754
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I knew it and I was right.

34:06.474 –> 34:11.277
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the demand, you know, for good whisky, the started.

34:11.837 –> 34:12.918
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew I was right.

34:14.130 –> 34:17.694
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I ever expect them to become the prices?

34:18.595 –> 34:22.279
[SPEAKER_01]: They became over the last four, five years, you know, since COVID?

34:22.619 –> 34:23.560
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

34:23.640 –> 34:23.860
[SPEAKER_01]: Not.

34:24.341 –> 34:29.086
[SPEAKER_01]: I think everyone just wrote the wave, you know, it made me very nervous.

34:31.005 –> 34:37.949
[SPEAKER_01]: how far it could go, you know, it was just moving so quickly.

34:38.369 –> 34:43.372
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you were seeing 30 to $50,000 bottles moving like hamburgers.

34:43.873 –> 34:44.313
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.

34:44.653 –> 34:46.794
[SPEAKER_00]: And you’re like, wait, what’s going on over here?

34:47.815 –> 34:48.475
[SPEAKER_00]: What do they know?

34:48.515 –> 34:49.176
[SPEAKER_00]: What’s going on?

34:49.196 –> 34:54.599
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, whereas before you’re talking about a $500, 500 pound, $500 dollar going to $6,700, yeah.

35:00.370 –> 35:16.315
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, customer living, yeah, hey, you talk here about a 10,000-pound bottle going to 15,000 within months and then you’re 20,000 within a year or a year and a half and it was just like, this is incredible, you know, incredible.

35:16.955 –> 35:24.238
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s funny because I was going through some of my old stock recently, I’m just going through my catalogs and all the rest of it.

35:25.393 –> 35:33.559
[SPEAKER_01]: And I found my cost price is on, I think it was a Macallon 55-year-old Lillique and my cost was £5,000.

35:33.579 –> 35:34.180
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah?

35:36.722 –> 35:37.102
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah?

35:37.302 –> 35:44.108
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I was sitting with Jason on the Monday before the show at the, you know, at your old office.

35:44.788 –> 35:51.273
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were talking about what Whiskey’s he’s bringing for the table and it was going back to the original costs and I was like, are you kidding me?

35:56.087 –> 36:03.591
[SPEAKER_00]: When you wore them, it’s free, like they were, you know, I don’t know if you’re gonna free trip to Japan, you know, because you wore them, it was like, it was insane.

36:03.612 –> 36:05.453
[SPEAKER_00]: And everything was insane.

36:05.513 –> 36:10.755
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I look at this and I’m like, I don’t see it stopping, I just don’t.

36:11.496 –> 36:18.400
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, you and I spend some time in Hong Kong and it’s like, there’s no, there’s no ceiling there, it just keeps going.

36:19.220 –> 36:25.926
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Gavin, where the big difference is, is I believe the industry became greedy.

36:26.446 –> 36:27.487
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I don’t know.

36:27.547 –> 36:35.113
[SPEAKER_01]: They saw how quickly the market was going and, you know, sadly, they looked at Asia too much.

36:35.874 –> 36:41.558
[SPEAKER_01]: Every conversation you had with the big companies was Asia, Asia’s going to crack it.

36:41.979 –> 36:45.802
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, of course, Darity, Hong Kong, China, yeah.

36:46.442 –> 36:56.805
[SPEAKER_01]: and they started making product purely for the Asian market, really expensive, and actually sadly liquid was not important.

36:57.105 –> 37:03.246
[SPEAKER_01]: Quarri, and for me that’s where it’s had gone wrong, yeah.

37:03.266 –> 37:10.288
[SPEAKER_00]: Well you said, you said 30 minutes ago, we were talking about how when the first edition of Black Bowl more came out, and the packaging was really nice.

37:12.399 –> 37:21.570
[SPEAKER_00]: And you think now they literally put shit in a bottle in a fancy box and they tell you it’s 10 grand and you like, but what that’s shit in a bottle.

37:31.461 –> 37:39.686
[SPEAKER_01]: up to a thousand pounds, maybe no age, but I personally struggle at 10,000, 20,000, 30,000.

37:39.767 –> 37:40.787
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

37:41.107 –> 37:52.575
[SPEAKER_01]: If there’s a bit of transparency there, or what’s in it, I know you can’t put it on the label, but you can put it on the website, you can put it in the literature, then I think it’s different.

37:53.649 –> 38:16.957
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, it should all be about liquid liquid liquid, yeah, and that’s what I like the old and rare stuff because it’s like it’s just it’s it’s a it’s a time capsule that of time that will never be the same and I I walked away from this we’ve seen you a few weeks ago in London and all the whiskeys we drank and I thought like it’s all a hustle now it’s all bullshit.

38:17.738 –> 38:18.618
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s a marketing.

38:19.623 –> 38:22.825
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, but there is good whiskey out there, guys.

38:22.885 –> 38:23.885
[SPEAKER_01]: It is really is.

38:24.285 –> 38:33.410
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the average quality of whiskey in the bottle today is probably much better than it was 10 years ago, especially standard stuff, yeah.

38:34.111 –> 38:40.334
[SPEAKER_01]: But it’s hit or may, some go down, depending on the demand, where demand has been really crazy.

38:40.754 –> 38:47.338
[SPEAKER_01]: They can’t keep up with demand, so you find that actually, there’s a little bit of, for me, quality, you know.

38:49.619 –> 38:58.364
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s not as good as it should be or would be because the accountant says I need a yield I need 300 cases And they’re like, eh, we’re gonna stretch 250 to 300.

38:58.384 –> 38:58.744
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

38:58.764 –> 39:00.445
[SPEAKER_00]: We’re gonna lose some quality.

39:00.846 –> 39:17.696
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay You know, and and and that’s why you know, I’m excited and we have to do a whole another episode on on your on your new ventures because like Tasting the quality of the storm or it’s like it’s it’s like you are doing the right thing by bringing back quality at affordable pricing

39:21.673 –> 39:22.794
[SPEAKER_01]: We’ve got a lot to do.

39:22.874 –> 39:24.275
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very new for us.

39:24.896 –> 39:27.218
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, the feedback has been amazing.

39:27.238 –> 39:31.662
[SPEAKER_01]: I know what I know it’s just going to get better and better.

39:31.682 –> 39:38.408
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we’re learning because remember things change in your marrying things change once you put it in bottle.

39:39.008 –> 39:42.692
[SPEAKER_01]: It changes once it’s had rest resting period.

39:43.292 –> 40:05.962
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing people don’t talk about, but for me, I’m very conscious and paranoid about these things, is seeing how these whiskeys develop and change over time and we’ve already got feedback or we’ve given feedback to my colleague and said, listen, this is the tweaks we need to make, and he’s like a 300% I was thinking exactly the same thing, which is great.

40:06.897 –> 40:09.259
[SPEAKER_01]: It’s great, but there is some really good stuff out there.

40:09.279 –> 40:13.663
[SPEAKER_01]: There really is, but unfortunately it’s lost in the mass.

40:14.003 –> 40:14.424
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

40:14.804 –> 40:15.685
[SPEAKER_00]: True.

40:16.025 –> 40:16.726
[SPEAKER_00]: They still can’t.

40:16.746 –> 40:19.888
[SPEAKER_00]: You remember how you’re saying earlier, like a lot of them couldn’t get distribution?

40:19.908 –> 40:22.150
[SPEAKER_00]: They still can’t.

40:22.190 –> 40:27.195
[SPEAKER_00]: These guys that are doing it right, it’s the big boys are kind of dominating the distribution channel.

40:28.161 –> 40:37.719
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, distribution is key is king is key, you know, it’s actually easy to make whiskey, but it’s actually really hard to get it out there.

40:38.502 –> 40:55.908
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, worldwide, two people to the masses, because it’s bad distribution and the only people who have really good solid distribution are the big companies which owned, you know, cell phones and they only look after their own brands.

40:56.408 –> 40:58.789
[SPEAKER_01]: So it’s tough, it’s actually really,

40:59.790 –> 41:10.449
[SPEAKER_01]: really interesting and really tough it’s this is my new you know learning now is understanding the market understanding the dynamics understanding marketing you know understanding

41:12.680 –> 41:13.360
[SPEAKER_01]: the rest of it.

41:13.880 –> 41:18.462
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like in my world of grocery, the saying is whoever owns the truck wins the game.

41:19.002 –> 41:25.984
[SPEAKER_00]: And these distributors, if that have the products on their trucks and go to all the stores, that’s all the stores buy.

41:26.064 –> 41:29.505
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you come in on another truck that’s not the truck, they don’t buy.

41:30.180 –> 41:30.900
[SPEAKER_01]: They’re interesting.

41:31.260 –> 41:32.381
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it’s a crazy game.

41:32.521 –> 41:34.401
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we killed almost 45 minutes.

41:34.421 –> 41:36.082
[SPEAKER_00]: That’s as most of the people can listen to.

41:36.422 –> 41:39.302
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to have you back on because we have so much more to talk to.

41:39.963 –> 41:41.843
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for taking the time today, my friend.

41:42.103 –> 41:44.364
[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, I don’t think you thank you.

41:44.664 –> 41:45.904
[SPEAKER_00]: Go to Japan, come back.

41:45.944 –> 41:47.905
[SPEAKER_00]: Let’s get, I want to hear all about the new stuff.

41:47.925 –> 41:49.065
[SPEAKER_00]: I want the listeners to hear.

41:49.605 –> 41:50.866
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I can’t thank you enough.

41:51.046 –> 41:56.790
[SPEAKER_00]: It’s been an amazing fun time with you this year and I look forward to many, many more experiences with you.

41:56.870 –> 42:05.675
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, the world needs more guys like you in the industry who are transparent and call it like it is and want to make the, make the whiskey world a better place.

42:06.936 –> 42:08.477
[SPEAKER_01]: That’s what we’re going to try and prove now.

42:09.218 –> 42:09.818
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Gal.

42:10.123 –> 42:10.863
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, my friend.

42:10.883 –> 42:12.084
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everyone, for listening.

42:12.564 –> 42:15.546
[SPEAKER_00]: I don’t think you need to go restart who’s secondary.

42:15.586 –> 42:17.887
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don’t know by now, then that’s okay.

42:18.027 –> 42:20.388
[SPEAKER_00]: Go research, but second to thank you for your time.

42:20.728 –> 42:22.089
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everyone, for listening.

42:22.529 –> 42:23.470
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy my friend.

42:23.690 –> 42:29.513
[SPEAKER_00]: I’m going to hit you up about, I want to do another episode talking about some of the newest stuff, but thank you so much for taking the time today.

42:29.833 –> 42:31.193
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everyone, for listening.

42:31.874 –> 42:34.995
[SPEAKER_00]: And until the next great podcast, I’ll talk to you guys all soon.

42:35.356 –> 42:36.076
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, thank you.